Professor Hagelsteintalked to us about our post on cold optical fusion . The interview was interesting enough that we thought it guarantee being hunt in its entirety .
Tim Barribeau : give thanks you for aim the time to talk to us … we’re hoping you could talk to us a minute about your research and the models you ’re working with right now and mayhap and the field as a whole and how it ’s alter . [ The press release ] mentioned that your model should be able to account more effectively for the heat observed in the original curing of reaction . What does the model really show .
Peter Hagelstein : Lets take a step rearwards . I rationalise , but in order of magnitude to make any sentience of it we necessitate to go back to experiment for a moment . So in the experiments , a huge amount of energy is find , so much energy that it could not conceivably be of chemical origin . Plus , there ’s no alchemy that ’s observed going on in the experiment that has anything remotely to do with the observations of the power and full DOE yield . The second bit of it is that basically no up-and-coming speck are observed commensurate with the energy . So there are no significant amount of neutrons , there ’s no fast electron , there ’s no da Gamma rays . There ’s nothing you might expect if it were a more normal atomic chemical reaction process . The basic program line here is that — if it ’s real and if it ’s nuclear … the argument for it being nuclear is that there ’s 4He ( helium-4 ) observed in experiments , more or less one 4He for every 24 MeV of energy that ’s create . So what you need in the room of a theoretic model , fundamentally a new sort of mechanism that does n’t make like the old Rutherford reaction picture that nuclear cathartic is based on . So that ’s the canonical trouble that I ’ve been working on for a with child many years .
The prominent job is one that has to do with the quantum mechanics issue . The atomic energy amount in a vainglorious free energy quantum , and if it did n’t get broken up , then the big vigor quantum would get expressed as industrious particle , as normally pass off in nuclear chemical reaction . So the approach we ’ve take on is that we ’ve said “ the only conceivable path for making horse sense of these observations at all , is that the big energy quanta have to get slice up and diced up into a very very large number if much small-scale energy quanta . ” The much prominent routine is on the order of several hundred million . In NMR physics and optical physics , people are familiar with breaking up a great quantum into perhaps 30 smaller bit , you could argue that there are some experiment where you could argue that maybe that numbers as high as 100 or so . It ’s unprecedented that you could take an MeV quantum and chop it up into bite sized pieces that are 10s of meV.
So after a pot of age of work on it , about 10 years ago we found a model that in reality did something like that . It ’s remarkable ! It turns out in the physics lit , there ’s a manikin called the ‘ Spin - Boson Model ’ that ’s basically a rudimentary quantum mechanics example , so you have a consonant oscillator and you hook it up to what ’s called a two horizontal surface organization — that ’s just an idealisation , it ’s a little bit of natural philosophy have to do with two of the get-up-and-go levels in a more complicated organisation . But it makes the maths really simple , so the resulting example is one you’re able to analyze to death . People have studied that fashion model now for between 40 - 60 geezerhood , depending on how you count them . This framework predicts the 30 or 50 fold , or the power to break up a two level system of rules quantum into , for example , into nearly 30 individual quanta . What we find is the agency that the model does it , it can do it , but it ’s hindered . There ’s a destructive interference effect that move on , that makes the effect comparatively weak . What we found , is that if you added a uncanny kind of loss to the model — a red that you would expect in the cold fusion scenario . The new model , with passing , is much more relevant to the forcible berth called spinal fusion than otherwise . But this uncanny sort of personnel casualty , it part the destructive interference , and it make this get-up-and-go interchange go order of magnitude faster . And instead of being a comparatively weak impression , it ’s now a very strong , it ’s a prevalent effect . This mannequin is exactly what you need ! It ’s a microscopical engine to take big quanta and chop it up into petty tiny quantum . So that ’s what we ’ve found .
Looking in to basically modelling excess heating output in the Fleischmann - Pons experimentation base on variance of this form of role model .
So mayhap there ’s 2D ( dueterium-2 ) somewhere in the lattice , and maybe it give out to 4He and in the process perhaps it can give its energy up to the grille oscillation — essentially optic phonons directly using this chemical mechanism . So , if we set up a model to attempt to do that , we find right away that it does n’t work . It does n’t work because the coupling is to weak . But if we change the model a little bit to say first the 2D transfers its irritation somewhere else , to nuclei that have stiff coupling , then if these nucleus do in fact have a stronger coupling , then the model complain in , and they can chop up the get-up-and-go up and give it to the optical phonons .
Anyway , that ’s sort of the kernel of the model that we ’ve been studying . It ’s been a ruffianly natural philosophy trouble for a lot of grounds , recently we ’ve had some luck in obtaining analytical and mathematical results on these model , so that we can quantify them . We ’re actually able , these Clarence Day now , conjecture you require to pop out with a 23 MeV quantum , and hack it up into 50 meV quanta , how long does it take to do that ? How many nucleus do you ask to do it ? How much excitation do you demand to do it ? We can necessitate these questions of these models , and the modeling can give us quantative resolution . As a result , within the framework of these models we can begin to develop answers to some of these questions .
For case , it ’s pretty certain from these models that you do n’t go directly from a 24 MeV quantum down to the optical phonons . What you ’d choose to do is to downshift from 24 MeV to some sort of intermediary stopping item , maybe 2.25 MeV or so , and then attempt to downshift to the optical phonon slews . The modeling say that that works vastly better than starting with a larger energy quantum . Anyway , those are the form of things that the basic model does .
It also tells us what to look for in a material as to what makes it special , to make the inhuman fusion extra warmth process employment . What we ’ve found recently — very recently — is that bulk palladium can not host a 2D molecule , but if the Pd has a void , it get down the electron concentration and 2D can mould . And very recently we found not only can it form , but there ’s a little cage that it has a hypothesis of agree in , if the loading is just right . If the monovacancy has the right occupation and so forth . These conditions under which the monovacancy can host the 2D corpuscle seem to very uniform with the attack of the spare power in the experiments . So that ’s exciting to us !
The same elaborated deliberation that found this consequence in atomic number 46 seems to show a lesser version of it in gold . One of my friends has a event , where he thinks he might have seen some supernumerary heat as a preliminary result in a [ gilt coated cathode ] . That ’s a result that need confirm , but if its confirmed , then perhaps we ’re beginning to get the ability to maybe do the computation of the material to find out . We now think we know what property are important for it to be able to produce excess tycoon . What we ’d like to do is jump attempt to correlate between these dumbly useable calculations and experiments to see whether we ’ve got a hard-nosed handgrip on this part of the job .
Anyway , there ’s lots and raft of other results !
TB : What are your feelings about cold fusion as a whole in enquiry the right way now ? This has go away from something that was almost find as a psuedoscience to now , where it ’s something more and more mass are saying “ expect , there ’s something behind this ” , and funding is eventually starting to show up . Would you be willing to point out on the place as a whole ?
PH : I can try ! There ’s going to be a good deal of role and musical composition link up with it , but lets start at the first . The canonic excess heat / excess superpower yield seems to be real , seems to be something that can be done by many group in the science laboratory . It seems to be reproduced much substantially these days than in 1989 when these things first got started . The amount of energy is genuinely exceptional , and given that we ’re living on a major planet mighty now that ’s very concerned — for the right understanding — about Department of Energy , people ought to be much more interested in this experiment and the effect that were obtained , and the associated scence .
Is it going to be an get-up-and-go author for the future tense ? I do n’t know , nobody have it off . But it has the potential , peradventure , to be an energy source that can solve some of the big problems the world ’s veneer . That is something that should overhear hoi polloi ’s attention .
With regard to the science , there ’s been some good skill that has been done . We ’ve work on it for a lot of years , we ’ve see some things . For example , we ’ve learned that He get out into the gas in association with the excess big businessman that ’s produced , and that you get one He atom for close to 24 MeV Charles Frederick Worth of energy — as a preliminary experimental answer . We would like more check of that solvent . At the here and now , the datum seems to support that , which is very interesting .
We ’ve memorize that , in some experiments , if you increase the temperature , the rate of superfluous great power production rifle up — that ’s interesting . As it turns out or so in the same direction as if you expect to go up if you were trying to take in the He out off from the active internet site by diffusion . If He clog up the active land site were responsible for limiting the excess powerfulness , then it would have the same temperature dependence as what ’s observed through an experiment .
With respect to funding , I do n’t fuck that financial support has alleviate up in this field . For illustration , I do n’t have much in the room of funding these days . Most of my inquiry is unsupported , and that ’s been unfeigned for a while . I ’m get to the conference because I ’m buying the ticket with my recognition poster , and I ’m pay the league fee with my credit card , and so forth . So , if there is funding , that ’s very dainty , but I ’m not familiar with useable support in this theater of operations these day .
TB : The one other liberal question I do have , and this is of path the one that ’s on everyone ’s mind , would be “ how long do you opine it would be before this technology is in use ? ” . know what you eff now , and don things go relatively well .
PH : If thing go on the way that they ’re going on today , the answer is that it ’s never survive to go on . There ’s fewer and few masses each year , and the amount of resources are not great , and basically we ’re induce older . We ’re not going to live constantly — I do n’t think we ’re proceed to live forever , anyway . Unless something changes , there ’s a very expert modification we ’re not going to finish our employment before there ’s none of us left to do any of it . Generally new raw people have not been joining the bailiwick , and there ’s a lot of reasons for that . If a young somebody cerebrate of joining the field , he or she does it at risk of have a career ruined by association with being in the theatre . So , it ’s not secure at the moment that this engineering is in reality run low to make it into any kind of commercial used without a rudimentary modification in how thing work . There need to be some reinforcement in the plain that ’s more significant than what ’s present now by a duo of orders of magnitude — at least . We take to find a way to take away the contamination , such that young citizenry can get together in the field so we can reach down what we ’ve discover — both in training up scientists in the subject and making the skill available in good certification , diary theme , textbooks and that variety of matter . At the moment , one though is that the best that we could be doing right now is to document the yield of labor , such that some time in the future — whenever social club finally decides that get-up-and-go is an important enough problem that you ought to put some time and effort into what ’s probably one of the best solutions to it — and then possibly we can hand off our work for another generation , maybe 50 long time from now , or however farsighted it takes for society to estimate out which way is up on this problem .
On the other bridge player , if tomorrow somebody decided it was a intellectual matter for governance financial backing to go into this sphere at a substantial level , because it was a national anteriority or some such , then I actually conceive you could have the very first technology beginning to be applicable or available in something in the world-wide neighborhood of 3 to 5 years . Probably the very first technology would be very simple kinds of things . Maybe something as bare as a change adaptation of a furnace , where it takes electrical energy as stimulus , for instance , but the thermal energy that you get out might be a significant multiple of the get-up-and-go start in . So maybe instead of mother a fraction of the joules for every joule of vim going in , maybe you get three J or five joules or something . That form of covering might not go like the world ’s most important applications programme , but something like that might actually be the very first product to come out of the raw engineering science .
succeeding product which one would hope to come out of the technology would be a more pregnant vigour source , that could , for deterrent example , power your car in such a fashion that you meet up your gaseous state tank car when the cable car is made , and you never have to fill it up again . Because the vitality density associated with heavy water in regards to this process is about 10 million times that of chemic muscularity density associated with gasoline .
Other areas that would profit dramatically from this technology : one is robotics . Robots hurt from having to have a cord for power supply from a rampart , or if they have to convey their own vim supply , well then basically they have to pack their fuel or their energy pack , and that hinders robot maturation . But if you had a component of 10 million increases in your energy density , or energy to weight or energy to mass ration , then your robots could do a peck more .
In terms of getting out into space , if you had a power source that had such high energy to weight proportion as this technology can provide , then that changes the landscape fundamentally . It becomes much less of an issue , you do n’t need a very turgid amount of Eruca vesicaria sativa fuel stacked up in these towering thrusters to get out into blank space !
More prosaic , the man got problems of drinking pee . If you have brassy energy , you would be able to puzzle out the boozing water job . The one-half of the cosmos or so that ’s not got access to drunkenness body of water , you have the potentiality to lick a problem like that with an energy source of that form .
Those are some of the thoughts mass in the theater of operations have had about what this engineering might be used for .
TB : I had no idea the state that the field of battle is in right now ! It feels like , 3 - 5 old age , that could be just around the niche .
PH : It ’s not going to happen anytime soon , most likely . For example the physicist who was one of the labor organizer of the May 1st Baltimore session in 1989 that debunked cold fusion was a fellow by the name of Steve Koonin . [ He ] was latterly appoint to be under - secretaire in charge of research at the Department of Energy . As a result , basically part of his succeeder and part of his report was made based on pour down cold merger . He ’s now in a billet of responsibility for enquiry at the DoE , you could imagine what kind of difficulties that leads to in terms of trying to move cold optical fusion research to the spot where you get backing , or you try on to dispatch the taint from it . The folks that expose cold fusion in 1989 , many of them have profited by their actions , and we will will likely continue to pay for that for long time to come .
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